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International Congress Series
Volume 1261 , April 2004, Pages 325-327
Does the Tat polymorphism originate in northern Mongolia?
C. Keyser-Tracqui et al.
Abstract
It has been suggested that the Y-chromosomal T→C transition arose in Mongolia ~2400–4000 years ago. To test this hypothesis, we screened 2300-year-old Mongolian male specimens and ancient Yakut male specimens for this Y-chromosomal marker. Our results demonstrate that the mutation was present in Asia 2300 years ago.
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In the past few years, a large number of polymorphic markers have been identified on the Y chromosome. Among these is the T→C transition (locus RBF5) reported by Zerjal et al. [1] and later called the Tat-polymorphism. The C allele of this biallelic marker has so far been observed only in populations from Asia and northern Europe. It reaches its highest frequency in Yakuts, Buryats, northeastern Siberian populations and Finns (Table 1).
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In this study, we screened ancient Mongolian samples from the Egyin Gol necropolis for the Tat marker. The Egyin Gol necropolis, located in northern Mongolia, is ~2300 years old and belongs to the Xiongnu culture [3]. In addition, we genotyped the T→C mutation in ancient Yakut specimens excavated at two sites in the Sakha Republic (Yakutia) [4].
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All of the seven ancient Yakut individuals tested showed the C allele, confirming that the mutation occurred most probably before their migration from southern regions. Concerning the Xiongnu people, two of them harboured the mutation suggesting that the Tat polymorphism already existed in Mongolia 2300 years ago.
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In conclusion, our study showed that the C allele was present in parent populations to the modern inhabitants of Mongolia or Yakutia, suggesting that the mutation may have arisen in Mongolia more than 2400 years ago [1]. Moreover, our work suggests that the Xiongnu tribe under study may have been composed of some of the ancestors of the present-day Yakut population.
Posted by Dienekes at July 18, 2004 01:20 AM | PermaLinkBut we now know that there were Caucasoids in Mongolia in ancient times.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ...5013/35013.html
Who knows, maybe these or similar people gave rise to Tat-C? Maybe they only mixed with Mongols later, after some of them had migrated west, and spread Tat-C in West Eurasia? It's possible.
Posted by: Polak at July 18, 2004 05:57 AMLink doesn't work.
Posted by: Dienekes at July 18, 2004 12:53 PMOops...
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v73n2/35013/35013.html
Posted by: Polak at July 18, 2004 10:04 PMThe Caucasoid component in Mongolia is explained by the presence there of HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9 haplogroup chromosomes [Am. J. Hum. Genet., 71:466-482, 2002]
Posted by: Dienekes at July 18, 2004 10:26 PMYes, but how do we know Tat-C didn't originate in a Caucasoid population there?
"Moreover, our work suggests that the Xiongnu tribe under study may have been composed of some of the ancestors of the present-day Yakut population."
This tribe is the one that showed Caucasoid dna, and was probably ancestral to modern Turkish tribes.
How do we know Tat-C didn't originate around this area in these Caucasoids, and then spread west and north.
It seems that all the populations with high levels of Tat-C have at least some Caucasoid element. But pure Mongols to the east only show small levels of Tat-C.
Posted by: Polak at July 19, 2004 04:47 PM>> How do we know Tat-C didn't originate around this area in these Caucasoids, and then spread west and north.
Don't label them as "Caucasoids". Mongolia has always had a Mongoloid population with intrusion of Caucasoids from the West. There's no evidence of the spread of Caucasoids from Mongolia.
>> It seems that all the populations with high levels of Tat-C have at least some Caucasoid element.
Given that the Caucasoid race evolved in West Eurasia, I think chances are slim that it evolved on its own in Mongolia as well, especially since haplogroup N is phylogenetically linked to haplogroup O, the main Chinese lineage.
Posted by: Dienekes at July 19, 2004 06:06 PMBut do we know that Caucasoids evolved in Western Eurasia?
Maybe it was in south asia?
Or perhaps different lineages that now make up the Caucasoid race evolved in seperate parts of Asia?
Maybe Tat-C evolved in a proto-north Caucasoid and north-Mongoloid population, which then contributed to the genesis of both stocks, in western and eastern Eurasia respectively?
Tat-C seems to be an ancient lineage. So why is such a scenario not possible?
I personally don't care where Tat-C evolved, but I have seen some scientists dismiss certain markers as East Asian just because they are found in Asia. Someone actually did it with R1a in an early report. That's just slack work.
Also, a lot of people claim that Tat-C is indicative of Mongol blood in Europe.
I think it may be indicative of East Asian ancestry, but that doesn't always equate to "blood" - overall genetic composition in other words.
If the Finns have 55% of Tat-C, and 5% M (mtDNA), does that make them at least 1/4 East Asian? No, it does not.
They are probably about 95% West Eurasian when the entire genome is taken into consideration.
Posted by: Polak at July 19, 2004 09:39 PM>> But do we know that Caucasoids evolved in Western Eurasia?
Yes, we do, because we have hundreds if not thousands of Caucasoid skeletons preceding the 4,000 years (max) of the Tat-C mutation.
>> Maybe it was in south asia?
South Asia is not a source of modern Caucasoid lineages, but rather a Proto-Asian+Caucasoid blend.
>> Maybe Tat-C evolved in a proto-north Caucasoid and north-Mongoloid population, which then contributed to the genesis of both stocks, in western and eastern Eurasia respectively?
Well, the vast majority of Mongoloid and Caucasoid peoples lack Tat-C, which is also too late to have contributed to the formation of these races.
>> Tat-C seems to be an ancient lineage. So why is such a scenario not possible?
It is one of the youngest haplogroups presently known.
>> I personally don't care where Tat-C evolved, but I have seen some scientists dismiss certain markers as East Asian just because they are found in Asia. Someone actually did it with R1a in an early report. That's just slack work.
Tat-C is not East Asian, since it is mostly lacking in East Asians. It is north Eurasian.
>> Also, a lot of people claim that Tat-C is indicative of Mongol blood in Europe.
Some of it may be, since some Mongolian groups possess it, but mostly it is indicative of Uralic elements.
Posted by: Dienekes at July 19, 2004 09:53 PMWell to date, I haven't seen any detailed dna reports on the formation of Caucasoids.
European lineages come from different sources. Some seem more closely related to those in south-east Asia, while others are Middle Eastern.
I also notice that haplogroup ages are very tough to establish. I've seen all sors of estimates for R1a, for example.
I'll withold my judgememt on Tat-C till I see something solid showing me that it clearly originated in a fully Mongoloid population.
Posted by: Polak at July 20, 2004 07:22 AMSo how long has tat-c been in Finland and surrounding areas? If longer than 2,300 years, the question is still open about whether it was in Eastern Europe or ariund Mongolia first .
Posted by: Don at July 20, 2004 08:32 AMWhy cannot Finns carry one third Hun genes? It is the more logical explanation.
Posted by: jaime at July 23, 2004 10:14 AMWell ... the Huns do not go 2,300 years back,at least in Europe. Has there been any studies on Y-chromosomes from Finland (or other Baltic areas)from 2,300 + years back to see if TAT-C was around?
Posted by: Don at July 23, 2004 02:01 PMDon, 2,300 years ago the Finns were not around, certainly not in Finland. TAT-C is a mutation that arised in Central-North Siberia among the ancestors of the peoples now called Yakut, Mongol, Tungus, etc. The proportion of Finns carrying the mutation may indicate that they too, are, partially, descended from the same Siberian group. It makes sense as Finns certainly originated in that area and speak a Siberian language. The question if TAT-C arised within an Eastern or a Western Asiatic group seems to me rather obvious, but I am ready to accept any semantic solution. By the way, I never heard anyone complaining against the Finns, they are a most decent and positive people. TAT-C is not a disease.
Posted by: jaime at July 24, 2004 08:47 PM>> TAT-C is not a disease.
Good point. The Tat-C bearers must have been a fascinating people, as they spread into an area from the Pacific to the Atlantic in 2-4 thousand years.
Posted by: Dienekes Pontikos at July 25, 2004 02:34 PMGuys -- This is probably old to you, but yes tat-c is interesting. While migration from Siberia West is very plausible it also seems possible (i.e. Villems) that tat-c migrated from West to the East .... although maybe many European Y chromosmes are origninally from Asia a long time ago. It seems like analysis of DNA from > 2-4,000 years ago in the Baltic region and Eastern Europe is really needed to answer this.
Posted by: don at July 26, 2004 04:40 AM